Activity vs. Progress: The Busyness Trap Every Leader Needs to Escape

A packed schedule feels like momentum. It's not. In this episode, Jordan Raynor joins me to tackle the tension that might be the most frustrating in the entire arc, when you work harder than you ever have and can't point to a single thing that actually moved. 

We get into why busyness is always easier than real productivity, how to set goals that measure achievement instead of activity, and the one question that cuts through the noise and creates instant clarity.
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⏱️ Episode Highlights
[01:38] – The Busyness Illusion: Why most leaders confuse being busy with making progress.
[03:51] – 30 Priorities, Zero Progress: Drowning in objectives, meetings, and fires, with nothing moving.
[08:33] – Meet Jordan Raynor: Author and startup CEO who scaled a company from 5 to 150 people.
[10:16] – Too Many Goals, Wrong Metrics: Why activity-based goals guarantee you work more and accomplish less.
[14:24] – Progress vs. Motion: How to tell the difference from the inside.
[17:14] – Busyness Is Easier: Why fake productivity is always more tempting than the real thing.
[17:26] – Stop Doing Meeting: The counterintuitive habit that made Jordan more productive.
[20:24] – The Leverage Point Question: The one question that cuts through overwhelm instantly.
[24:53] – 40 Years in the Desert: The oldest activity vs. progress lesson in Scripture.
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Links & Resources Mentioned
• Discipled Leader Apprenticeship — prestonpoore.com 
• Discipled Leader Book — prestonpoore.com/books-by-preston 
• How is Greater Than What Book — prestonpoore.com/book 

• About Preston — prestonpoore.com/about-preston_poore 
• Redeeming Your Goals (Jordan Raynor — upcoming book) — Available October 
• Jordan Raynor's other books: Redeeming the Time, Called to Create - jordanraynor.com/books 

Connect With Me
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/prestonpoore 
Facebook: facebook.com/PoorePreston 
Instagram: instagram.com/prestonpoore1
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Closing Thoughts
If today's episode hit home, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Like it, comment, leave a review, it helps more people find the show and quite honestly, it reminds me I'm not just talking to myself in here.
Peace out. Be a rock star.

About Preston Poore

Preston Poore is a former Coca-Cola executive who practices what he preaches. He uses his wealth of hard-earned experience in the corporate arena to help emerging leaders and millennials reach their potential—all while staying true to his values, purpose, and goals.

Preston is a Certified Maxwell Leadership Team Keynote Speaker, Facilitator, Trainer, and Executive Coach. Through his books, How Is Greater Than What, Discipled Leader (2022 Selah Awards Nonfiction Book of the Year) and 21 Days to Sound Decision Making, his blog, and podcast, he seeks to help people become redemptive influences in their workplaces and live more fulfilling lives.

Learn more about Preston Poore & Associates: https://prestonpoore.com

Work with Preston or invite him to speak: https://prestonpoore.com/leadership-development-services/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Busyness, fake productivity is way, way, way easier than real productivity.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Activity feels like leadership because it's visible, but progress is invisible until it compounds.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

And the leader who's making progress is the one who's getting outcomes and not just frantic with activity.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Nothing is a priority if everything is a priority. Most leaders I know have 30 priorities, which means they actually have zero. The manager's meeting. My boss Catherine surveys the room. Bring me your three-year plans. Complete on my desk, two weeks. We were supposed to nod and comply, but I couldn't. So I raised my hand and I said, Catherine, we have so many priorities. The team is under real pressure to deliver on time. Can you delay the planning and let them stay focused on the work that matters? Well, I think it was those last three words that turned her face red. She turned to my peers, everyone who had told me at some point privately that they were drowning. Does anyone else share these same concerns? Heads down, every single one. And one by one, they said that they could deliver. Nobody backed me up. Then she turned to me and she said, There you have it. No one else has a concern, neither should you. Go fill out one of your priority grids, and you'll go figure it out. Well, I sat there, embarrassed, stunned, and flustered. And I realized something had to change. Not her, me. If you've ever been the busiest person in the building and the least effective leader on the floor, this one's for you. I spent 30 years in corporate leadership making every mistake in the book, some of them twice. I'm Preston Poor, and if you're a leader who's ever felt in over your head but too proud to say it, you're in the right place. This is PQ. Welcome. Quick recap. Last episode was about the availability trap. Saying yes to everyone, effective for no one. Learning that a packed calendar isn't leadership, it's people pleasing with a title. But here's what happens next. You start filling your calendar with the right things, more strategy, more planning, and more doing. And at the end of the day, you're wiped out. But you can't name one thing that actually move forward. And that's today's tension. And it might be the most frustrating one in the entire arc. So today, episode six, activity versus progress. There's a difference between being busy and being productive. Every leader knows this, but almost none of us live it. We fill the day with meetings, calls, emails, check-ins, status updates, and firefighting. We collapse at the end of the day, feeling like we ran a marathon, and then someone asks, What'd you accomplish today? And we just stare at them. Activity asks, What did I do today? Progress asks, what moved forward today? Activity feels like leadership because it's visible. You're in the room, you're on the call, you're responding. But progress is invisible until it compounds. And the leader who's always been busy never has time to ask whether any of it matters. Hear this. Nothing is a priority if everything is a priority. Most leaders I know have 30 priorities, which means they actually have zero. Looking back on how I managed time and my priorities, I exercised some poor judgment. And now from the home office in Atlanta, Georgia, the top five signs that you were busy all day but accomplished absolutely nothing. Number five, you had nine meetings today. You made zero decisions, but you did eat a stale muffin from the break room. So not a total loss. Number four, you spent 30 minutes preparing a meeting about a meeting. Then someone scheduled a follow-up meeting to discuss what was decided in the meeting. Nothing was decided. Number three, someone asked you at 5 p.m. what you worked on today. Your mouth opened, closed it, opened it again, and you look like a fish at a job interview. Number two, you had 30 yearly objectives. 30. And that's not a strategic plan. That's a cry for help stapled to a spreadsheet. And the number one sign that you were busy all day but accomplished absolutely nothing. Your manager told you to go figure it out, filling out a priority grid. You couldn't find time to fill out the priority grid because you were too busy with your priorities. You heard the cold open. And here's the rest of the story. The interview should have been a warning to me. They told me the truth. They said that the team was dysfunctional, the supply chain was broken, and there were too many chiefs. It was going to be stressful, demanding, and political. They asked, Do you think you've got what it takes? I said, No. I asked to be removed from the consideration. But the pressure kept coming. Turn it down, and it could cost me. So I took it, knowing exactly what was waiting. Twelve project managers, 10 suppliers, $100 million in annual spend, hundreds of projects, hundreds of customers, and 70 plus bottlers. And get this 30 yearly objectives, meetings stacked on meetings with no margin to actually work. Every day a new fire drill. The tyranny of the urgent ran the team. Everything was a priority, which meant nothing was. I stopped sleeping. I stopped exercising. At home, I was just an easily set off. I was anxious all the time, always bracing for the next thing to go wrong. I told my manager I felt like I was failing every day. She wasn't moved. The work was running me and not the other way around. And I was running scared, running on empty, and ready to burn out. You heard how it ended. Catherine in front of the room. My request for margin waved off with a little sarcasm. My peers, every one of them, drowning in private, but shaking their heads in public. And nobody backed me up. I sat there embarrassed, stunned, and flustered. And I had a decision to make. I chose perseverance over discouragement. And I prayed. I got honest about what this team could actually become. And I found the projects that truly mattered. And I built a priorities grid. High importance, high urgency, we did those first. Low importance, low urgency, they were gone. I blocked white space on my calendar just to think. I showed the grid to my manager, man, she loved it. It became the center of our weekly one-on-ones. And then the shift that changed everything. I empowered my team. I gave them authority to decide and permission to say no. Well, guess what? The team started to gel. Productivity climbed, morale climbed, stress dropped, theirs and mine. The customers who doubted us started trusting us to deliver. At my annual review, Catherine, the same manager who humiliated me, said four words. You're a difference maker. Well, maybe five words, but you get the count. My team earned the highest rating there was. Exceeds performance. For that team, that had never happened. I didn't need to work harder. I needed to work on the right things. And I needed to trust the people around me to carry what I couldn't. That's the difference between activity and progress. Most leaders I know go to church on Sunday and show up on Monday like they've never heard a word of it. I was one of them. The Discipled Leader Apprenticeship exists to close that gap. One-on-one discipleship that shapes how you actually lead, not just what you do. If you're tired of living two separate lives, visit Prestonpoor.com. Hey, uh Jordan Rayner, welcome to PCUbe. Glad to have you on here today. Uh today we're going to talk about this tension, this busyness illusion that I'm busy all day, but actually not moving anything forwards about activity versus progress. And uh we've kind of built on that a little bit in the intro and as I told my story. But before we get going, tell us a little bit about yourself and what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Yeah, Preston, it's a joy to be with you. Hey guys, my name is Jordan Raynor. Uh, maybe best known for my books helping Christians connect their faith at their work. Books like Redeeming Your Time, called The Create the Sacredness of Secular Work. Uh, but for most of my career, my day job has actually been running and scaling tech startups. Today I serve as executive chairman of a company called Threshold360, this venture-backed tech startup that by God's grace alone, we grew from five to 150 people in my two and a half years as CEO. Uh, but I've been chairman for the last seven years. And man, that's the gig. Show up to board meetings and you leave and you don't have to solve any problems. Uh that's the that's the dream.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

I absolutely love it. We have an immediate connection on all that stuff. Uh, our company wasn't near as big as what you're doing, but I was in the defense industry with our family business uh and recently got out of that. But I understand wholeheartedly uh I was a board member, uh, I contributed, but didn't do the actual work. Uh, but understand all the the stuff that goes on uh because the business started 25 years ago. So this is gonna be great because you're gonna talk a little bit about this activity versus progress. I'm sure you see all kinds of opportunities in your day-to-day. So here's a here's a first question for you. I don't know if this is a softball, but let's just draw really get into it. Uh, tell me about a season when you were working harder than you've ever worked and accomplishing less than you ever had. And what did that look like for you, Jordan?

SPEAKER_00 10:16

I can point to a few different seasons, but the most, the, the most obvious one to be is my first quarter as CEO of Threshold. So I was not the founder of this company. I was a hired gun. I was the second CEO to run this thing, and I came in and I set way too many goals for me and my team. And they actually weren't really goals because these quote unquote goals were measuring activity rather than achievements. I'll give you an example. One of the worst goals I remember setting for my team that quarter was to launch the new Threshold360.com by December 31st. Here's why that's such a bad goal. If somebody had emailed me and said that, hey, Jordan, I got I got a way to guarantee your team a hundred new leads a day, I probably would have ignored or frankly just missed that message because I was so busy in the weeds with my team, focused on launching the new website. But that email, of course, would have offered me the smart cut to the result that the redesign was meant to achieve in the first place. Here's my point. Spotting smart cuts and truly productive rather than busy opportunities is really hard when your goals are measuring activities rather than achievements. It creates this inattentional blindness that leads you to myopically focus on specific tactics, specific activities rather than the results that those activities were meant to produce. If the only thing you're tracking are those activities and projects and actions, you're guaranteed to work more and accomplish less. And so what I've learned over time, man, it is essential that your goal measure achievements and outcomes because that's what becomes the filter for what you do and what you don't do. That's what helps you distinguish between busyness and true productivity. I tell my teams all the time a goal isn't a goal unless you can change the activities and tactics until the numbers move. Those are the types of goals that create cultures of productivity rather than just busyness.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

Oh, that's so good. It makes I remember uh when young in my career, I was, and this is not uh uh business, I guess, uh leading a business, but I was a salesperson for Dale Carnegie Training. You ever heard Dale Carnegie training? Oh, sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

I'm not that old, geez. Not that young, I should say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

But uh yeah, I knew uh Mr. Carnegie himself. No, I'm just so the funny thing about that was is that I remember the owner of the franchise there telling me to do all of these different activities, uh, cold calling. I had to do so many cold calls a day, visit so many companies a day. So all that makes sense, right? And I was being paid on a commission. And he said eventually those activities should lead to some results. And quite honestly, Jordan, they didn't. And uh we we I wasn't effective in that. So I was like this gerbil on a wheel all the time and getting stressed out about it, not delivering results. And what eventually did is I figured out those things that kind of like I think you were talking about, identified the things that would lead to the results and not just the the things that were uh he said to go do. And that's what we focused on. Uh when I say that, does that kind of connect at all with what you were saying?

SPEAKER_00 13:26

100%. And I think it's important to measure both because you were only able to see that you weren't getting results, you weren't being productive because you were tracking inputs and activities, right? Most goal setting books and frameworks are either or, right? So James Clear of Atomic Habits, it's basically all about tracking inputs, all about tracking activities. Whereas John Door, measure what matters, is all about tracking results. I think we need both so that we can know which activities are leading to true productivity rather than frantic busyness where we're just driving around a cul-de-sac and going nowhere.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Oh, that's fantastic. So good. Good stuff. We could stop the interview right there and I think we're done. But let's keep going. Let's keep going for the interest of the uh the audience. I know they're uh want to hear more from you. Uh, how do you tell the difference between a leader who's making progress and one who's just in motion? It's uh I was just wondering if it's possible to see from the inside or does somebody actually have to point it out to them to let them know.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but I really do think it's this simple, right? Having really clear goals that measure achievements rather than activity is how you could tell if somebody's actually being productive. And that's absolutely possible to see from the inside or outside because it's objective, right? Make 250 cold calls a week is an activity. It's not a goal. A better goal, have 100K and new revenue booked by the end of the quarter. Now I can tell the difference between a leader who's making progress and one who's just in motion, right? So it's impossible to do that if you're just tracking inputs instead of outcomes. It's gotta be both. And the leader who's making progress is the one who's getting outcomes and not just frantic with activity.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

So how do you apply that in your workplace right now? You're you're the this tech startup, and I'll have all those people. Have you do you have conversations like that? Or is everybody perfect at the organization and they're setting the goals like you were describing?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah, so we we've moved to a culture where it's extremely results oriented. So we really love uh the OKR objectives and key results framework made famous by Google, right? So these are objective achievement-based goals that are numeric and measurable, and that's what the team is really judged on, right? That is when it comes down to performance reviews on a quarterly or annual basis. We're talking about objectives and key results, right? It doesn't matter how many calls you made. Now it does matter as you, for example, uh a chief sales officer is developing somebody on their team where we are looking at those inputs to determine what's leading to the results. But ultimately, at the end of the day, we are not looking for busy leaders, but productive leaders that help move the venture forward.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

That's great. Uh, I have a friend named Todd Hopkins. He wrote a book called uh uh Something about the B word. And you see the title, and you're thinking it's something else, but uh the B word really is busyness uh that he focuses on and talks about how to not be busy but be productive on that.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

So I think it's Yeah, and here's the here's the deal, Preston. Busyness is easier than productivity. I I'm reminded of this anytime I meet a leader, a leader who talks about you spending four hours a day in email. The truth is it's easier to be reactively responding to email all day than it is to sit my butt in a chair and create something of value that is only generated through deep work and focus, right? Busyness, fake productivity is way, way, way easier than real productivity, but it's not satisfying. Fake productivity is what leads you to drive home at the end of the day and feel this disconnect between what you want for your life, what you want to give to the world and what you actually gave by just being distracted and reactive uh all day long.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Fantastic. Yeah, that's great. Thank you. Uh, what's one thing that you've stopped doing that you actually made you, Jordan, more productive? Not something that you added, something you stopped and uh something that you cut out. What's what's something you've done?

SPEAKER_00 17:26

It's a terrific question. Uh, I could give you a bunch of different answers, but you asked for one. Um, the the biggest one is is uh podcast interviews to sell books. Ironic, I know sharing that on a podcast. Uh, but note to self. Note to self. But I told you before we started, I'm not here to sell books, press, and I'm here because I I love you and want to support your work and serve your audience. My team and I um do a really good job of ensuring that our goals, like I said, are always measuring achievements rather than activity. And so every activity is ruthlessly scrutinized against whether or not it's making us productive or just busy. And so last year, my VP of marketing conducted an excellent analysis of every podcast interview I've done for every book and found that while they certainly do sell books, the number didn't justify the time. And so for the launch of my next book, I got a new book coming out in October called Redeeming Your Goals. You will see me do very, very, very few shows, probably less than five. Historically, I've done about a hundred podcast interviews each an hour long prior to the launch of the book. This time it's gonna be a handful. And yet, we're on pace to drive roughly four to five times the number of pre-orders for this book as we did for my last one, all because we're focused on achievements rather than activity, productivity rather than busyness.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

Amen, brother. I appreciate that. I uh recently spoke to somebody about this last book that I published, How is Greater Than What? And was uh they were actually entertaining, representing me, and then publishing the book for me and with me. And but the challenge for me was is he kept telling me that I needed to be on LinkedIn four times more than I already am. Now, a friend of mine, Clay Scrogens, that was on here recently, said that I'm a legend on LinkedIn. I don't say that to impress you. I tell you that that's kind of depressing. I'm on the tweet too much. Right. Uh, but be on LinkedIn more often. You need to send out more emails, you need to do this and this and this. And to me, those are those activities that uh maybe help a little bit, but they really don't at the end of the day about accomplishing the goal. If you want to sell more books, or if actually you want to get past the book and actually impact people, uh, you're not doing that on on social media, you're doing that uh through what kind of things where we interact with folks in keynote speeches or workshops or coaching, those kinds of things where it make a difference. Or or leading an organization like you are. So I wholeheartedly hear hear you on that. Uh absolutely. I could actually do a whole other podcast on that conversation, how that uh drove me in a different direction, but that's okay. Uh I got I've got this, and I'll end with one question uh on that that I typically ask everybody. Um, but this is for the millennial listener that's l uh and the leader that's uh tuning in today who's exhausted every day but can't point to real progress. Where do they start? I know you've talked about the goals, but if you're sitting back, you're an executive coaching somebody and they're stuck right now, what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, it's a great question. I I would say a couple of things. Number one, you are not the product of your productivity. You're a person with intrinsic value, regardless of what you produce in the world, right? And if that's not your starting point, if you don't believe that, that's where you got to do the hard work because everything else uh are just ornaments on a rotten tree, right? So that's where you got to start. Recognize that your worth comes from being a person rather than a productive unit. Number two, set clear goals that measure achievement rather than activity. Number three, drop anything from your to-do list or calendar that isn't driving achievement, right? If you've got really clear goals that are driving achievement, do this. And if you're terrible at this, if you're like Jordan, I'm looking at my to-do list, I can't see anything to drop. Let me encourage you to hold a stop doing meeting. I used to do this all the time with the co-founder of one of my first companies. Once a quarter, we would trade laptops and we would review each other's to-do lists and recommend things that the other person should drop. Right. So if you got somebody in your life who understands your goals and what you're trying to accomplish at work, hold a stopdoing meeting. Last thing I'll share, Preston. Once you've done that, you gotta get in the habit. If you're overwhelmed, you feel like you can't make real progress, get in the habit of asking one of my all time favorite questions. I call it the leverage point question, inspired by Greg McHugh and a Gary Kelly Keller. It's this what am I to do list if completed next is gonna make everything else easier or unnecessary? I ask this question almost every single day. Say it one more time. I'll say it one more time. So I call it the leverage point question. Here it is. What on my to-do list, if completed next, is gonna make everything else easier or unnecessary. Nine times out of ten, that question brings about a lot of clarity, a lot of productivity, and less busyness and frantic activity that has me making zero motion in my life and work.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah, that's so good. Uh it's interesting because I let in the story and I refer to the Eisenhower matrix, which I'm sure you're probably familiar with. Uh, but I use that as a tool to help me. But then it was also to go to my manager and say, here's how I'm thinking about the work and the projects that I'm on. And then I eventually coached and taught my team members to use the Eisenhower grid. And so when we had one-on-ones, that's where some of the productivity uh conversations and the uh achievement pieces that we talk about on this came to life because you could move things around, say, go do these things, let's drop this stuff and gave them the ability to say no as well, which is so important in all of that. So really good. Such such value added today. If uh is there anything else, Jordan? When you came in today and you got the invite from me uh saying, Hey, I'd love to have you on, was there anything that crossed your mind to say that hey, I'd actually love to just share this with uh the folks that are listening today?

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Man, it's a great question. I I was so focused on the topic of busyness. I I just say this, man. I I love that you're tackling this because it is and I think AI is a great accelerant to this. We are busier than ever before and less productive uh than we have been in a long time. At least most of the leaders that I'm talking to. Do not mistake busyness for productivity, right? Do the real work that creates real results because this work that you are doing is good. It is sacred because it is creating impact for other people in the world. And so, man, you can't get bogged down. It's stuff that looks productive. Let's fight to do the things that are actually productive and actually bless people.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Oh, rock and roll. That was awesome. Thank you for that. Uh those closing comments. And uh, Jordan, I want to tell you number one, I know your new book is coming out in October, you just said, right? So we'll look forward to that. Redeeming your goals. Is that right? That's right. Fantastic. And then I also want to thank you personally for endorsing how is greater than what that we pleased. That's back in September. So that's uh that's been fun to follow up on and involve that.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

You're you're you're you're an excellent writer who uh is actually saying things of substance, and that is rarer than it should be uh today.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. We'll we'll keep trying. And next year, when you do a podcast again, if you have five that you're doing, let's try to get you back on here. Let's do it, man. You're in high demand. So good. Great, great time today. Thanks, Jordan. Thank you, President. Jordan, this has been great. Thank you. And here's what keeps coming back to me. You can be in constant motion and go nowhere. You can work for 40 years and walk in circles. And nobody in scripture knows that better than the people God set free. The Israelites were active for 40 years, walking, making camp, breaking camp, moving through the desert. Every single day they were doing something. And they went in circles. 40 years of motion, zero progress. Not because they were lazy, because they would not trust God's direction. The promised land was right in front of them. The scouts came back and said, it's everything that God told us it would be. But 10 out of the 12 said, the people are way too strong. We can't take it. Well, so God said, Fine, you wander until this generation passes. And they did. Forty years that looked like progress and was really just walking in circles in the sand. And here's what stays with me. They weren't just sitting still, they were busy every single day. They had structure, they had routine, a cloud by day, fire by night, they had activity. What they didn't have was the courage to move where God was pointing. And that's the question for you today. Are you busy or are you moving toward something? Because there is a promised land right in front of you. You can spend 40 years walking in circles, or you can trust the direction that you've been given and take the land. So, what do we do with all this? I'm not going to leave you sitting in the tension. Here are three things that I wish someone had told me before I nearly burned out and almost took the team down with me. Number one, nothing is a priority if everything is a priority. Now remember, I had 30 yearly objectives. 30. That's not a plan. That's a to-do list with ambition. The leaders who make the real progress have two or three. Milt Matthews at Hershey, where I worked one time, ran his whole sales operation on three. Make your plan, control your costs, develop your people. And that wasn't a suggestion. That was a command. Whittle it down and then whittle it again. Number two, white space is not wasted space. The most productive thing I ever did was block time on my calendar to think. No meetings, no calls, no email. Just think. My manager loved it. My team noticed the difference. You can't lead from a calendar with no margin. If you don't schedule time to think, you won't think. And if you don't think, you're just reacting. And reacting, that's not leading. And number three, empowerment is the ultimate progress multiplier. I tried to carry it all myself. I nearly burned out. The moment I trusted my team, gave them authority, gave them permission to say no, believed in them, everything changed. Progress didn't come from me working harder, it came from me letting go. The leader who has to touch everything will never move anything forward. So stop pulling your hair out. Stop running scared. Block the time. Build the grid. Trust your team. And when you look up from the chaos, move forward the thing that actually matters. That's progress. So you've learned to prioritize. You've carved out white space. You've empowered your team. And you're finally making real progress. But here's what nobody warns you about. Once you start leading at a real pace, a sustainable, effective pace, that voice shows up again. And this one says if you slow down, someone passes you. If you rest, you fall behind. And if you stop, you'll lose everything you've built. Next episode, if I slow down, I fall behind. If I don't, I burn out. That's the burnout tension. Speed versus sustainability. See you there. Well, that's a wrap. Thanks for spending part of your day with me. And I know your time is valuable and your to-do list is long. If this was helpful, share it with someone else who needs it. Like it, comment, leave a review. It helps more people find the show, and quite honestly, it makes me feel like I'm not just talking to myself in here. And if today's tension hit home, maybe a little too close to home, and if you're tired of being one person on Sunday and someone else on Monday, check out the Disciple Leader Apprenticeship at PrestonPore.com. Ten weeks, one hour a week, one conversation at time, no slides, no lectures, just real talk. And find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Instagram. Peace out, be Rockstar.